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	<title>Comments on: Public Prices and Baselines, part I</title>
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	<link>http://www.rethinkingmarkets.org/2007/07/06/public-prices-and-baselines-part-i.html</link>
	<description>Economic Sociology from the Ground Up</description>
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		<title>By: Yuval</title>
		<link>http://www.rethinkingmarkets.org/2007/07/06/public-prices-and-baselines-part-i.html#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Yuval</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting answer and a nice discussion.
Looking forward to pt. II
Yuval</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting answer and a nice discussion.<br />
Looking forward to pt. II<br />
Yuval</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Levin</title>
		<link>http://www.rethinkingmarkets.org/2007/07/06/public-prices-and-baselines-part-i.html#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Levin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 12:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I should address the last first, since it&#039;s a more empirical question, and your former set of questions is both harder and more important.

CBOT&#039;s claim that bucket shops were gambling because they didn&#039;t engage in delivery is about as true as the claim that the US invaded Iraq to find WMD. It was a politically-useful claim, which gained traction in US courts, but I think the underlying criticism stemmed from CBOT&#039;s desire to capture all the trading traffic, and to convince a restive populism that trading wasn&#039;t gambling.  As far as I&#039;m concerned, intent to deliver was always a scam.

Interestingly, when I was doing research on this at the Chicago historical society, I found old correspondence between CBOT and one of its lawyers, saying that there was no real law they could write to outlaw bucket shops that wouldn&#039;t also outlaw futures trading - perhaps not decisive, but evidence that the &#039;no delivery&#039; claim was hit upon rather than a theoretically coherent reason. My reading of the historical record suggests CBOT traders themselves hedged their positions in bucket shops - and someplace I remember the Board decided to soap up the windows so traders couldn&#039;t flash prices to bucket shops downstairs. So I would say that &#039;contribution to price discovery&#039; was also one of the reasons CBOT tried, but it was not the one that could was convincing to courts.

As far as the first part of your comment, this is the heart of it. I would claim that there can be (and is, and has been) exchange without public prices, but can there really be a market? There are two elements here. First, the knowledge required to make decisions about how to price things (price ontology). How can you know if a 10% return on investment is good, bad, etc., without some answer to the question, &quot;compared to what?&quot; The &#039;riskless rate of return&#039; - or for many individual people, the interest rate you can get in a savings account or something - is the answer to that question.

Second, in the high modern sense of high finance, naked positions have become relatively rare with the great exception of scalpers. So, yes, CAPM users are most likely to be both practically and theoretically tied to treasuries as a riskless instrument. But wouldn&#039;t you say that other traders are also tied to treasuries, whether this be implicitly or explicitly?

My argument is something along the lines of Abolafia&#039;s discussion of bond traders in the 1980s, with there being two prices - in the street and bank-to-bank. The private (bank-to-bank) market was attached to the public (in the street) prices, sometimes directly and sometimes not, but always somehow...

In the main, though, you are right that the claims don&#039;t match the argument quite yet - it&#039;s more of a flag-in-the-sand statement so far, which I have a notion about but am not ready to tie it together tightly enough yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should address the last first, since it&#8217;s a more empirical question, and your former set of questions is both harder and more important.</p>
<p>CBOT&#8217;s claim that bucket shops were gambling because they didn&#8217;t engage in delivery is about as true as the claim that the US invaded Iraq to find WMD. It was a politically-useful claim, which gained traction in US courts, but I think the underlying criticism stemmed from CBOT&#8217;s desire to capture all the trading traffic, and to convince a restive populism that trading wasn&#8217;t gambling.  As far as I&#8217;m concerned, intent to deliver was always a scam.</p>
<p>Interestingly, when I was doing research on this at the Chicago historical society, I found old correspondence between CBOT and one of its lawyers, saying that there was no real law they could write to outlaw bucket shops that wouldn&#8217;t also outlaw futures trading &#8211; perhaps not decisive, but evidence that the &#8216;no delivery&#8217; claim was hit upon rather than a theoretically coherent reason. My reading of the historical record suggests CBOT traders themselves hedged their positions in bucket shops &#8211; and someplace I remember the Board decided to soap up the windows so traders couldn&#8217;t flash prices to bucket shops downstairs. So I would say that &#8216;contribution to price discovery&#8217; was also one of the reasons CBOT tried, but it was not the one that could was convincing to courts.</p>
<p>As far as the first part of your comment, this is the heart of it. I would claim that there can be (and is, and has been) exchange without public prices, but can there really be a market? There are two elements here. First, the knowledge required to make decisions about how to price things (price ontology). How can you know if a 10% return on investment is good, bad, etc., without some answer to the question, &#8220;compared to what?&#8221; The &#8216;riskless rate of return&#8217; &#8211; or for many individual people, the interest rate you can get in a savings account or something &#8211; is the answer to that question.</p>
<p>Second, in the high modern sense of high finance, naked positions have become relatively rare with the great exception of scalpers. So, yes, CAPM users are most likely to be both practically and theoretically tied to treasuries as a riskless instrument. But wouldn&#8217;t you say that other traders are also tied to treasuries, whether this be implicitly or explicitly?</p>
<p>My argument is something along the lines of Abolafia&#8217;s discussion of bond traders in the 1980s, with there being two prices &#8211; in the street and bank-to-bank. The private (bank-to-bank) market was attached to the public (in the street) prices, sometimes directly and sometimes not, but always somehow&#8230;</p>
<p>In the main, though, you are right that the claims don&#8217;t match the argument quite yet &#8211; it&#8217;s more of a flag-in-the-sand statement so far, which I have a notion about but am not ready to tie it together tightly enough yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Yuval</title>
		<link>http://www.rethinkingmarkets.org/2007/07/06/public-prices-and-baselines-part-i.html#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Yuval</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like the discussion you&#039;re starting to develop here, but I think that you may over-stretch the conclusions a bit. First, financial markets are not based on using the T-bills rate of return. In contrast, pricing according to CAPM, one of the building blocks of modern financial economics, is based on using T-bills as the &#039;risk-free rate of return&#039;. So, a baseline is crucial for pricing according to the efficient market hypothesis, but since not all market participants advocate EMH (I would suspect that many even reject it whole-heartedly), we cannot claim that markets would not exist without a baseline. Second, the distinction between private and public prices is not very clear. Many prices are public and free at certain resolutions (daily, usually) and restricted, or highly expensive at higher resolutions. Having said that, I think that the notion of parasitic relationships that surround prices has some mileage and you may want to take a look at Vincent Lépinay&#039;s paper: &quot; Parasitic formulae: the case of capital guarantee products&quot; where he develops an analysis based on the concept of parasite (following Michel Serres). Finally, it is true that the bucket shops were piggybacking CBOT prices the CBOT did not claim that the bucket shops&#039; operation was gambling because they used CBOT prices, but because they did not exchange goods for money. I have a working paper about this. (http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/CARR/pdf/Disspaper44.pdf)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the discussion you&#8217;re starting to develop here, but I think that you may over-stretch the conclusions a bit. First, financial markets are not based on using the T-bills rate of return. In contrast, pricing according to CAPM, one of the building blocks of modern financial economics, is based on using T-bills as the &#8216;risk-free rate of return&#8217;. So, a baseline is crucial for pricing according to the efficient market hypothesis, but since not all market participants advocate EMH (I would suspect that many even reject it whole-heartedly), we cannot claim that markets would not exist without a baseline. Second, the distinction between private and public prices is not very clear. Many prices are public and free at certain resolutions (daily, usually) and restricted, or highly expensive at higher resolutions. Having said that, I think that the notion of parasitic relationships that surround prices has some mileage and you may want to take a look at Vincent Lépinay&#8217;s paper: &#8221; Parasitic formulae: the case of capital guarantee products&#8221; where he develops an analysis based on the concept of parasite (following Michel Serres). Finally, it is true that the bucket shops were piggybacking CBOT prices the CBOT did not claim that the bucket shops&#8217; operation was gambling because they used CBOT prices, but because they did not exchange goods for money. I have a working paper about this. (<a href="http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/CARR/pdf/Disspaper44.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/CARR/pdf/Disspaper44.pdf</a>)</p>
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